Here is the four MGS MOCs of the smoker that have been cropped from the image numbers in file name and also there are lines of various colors for measuring in pixels the length and area of the lined and shaded features.

At the end is a reply I made to the Google Quest list explaining why my first post was based on emotion and NOT the cold hard reality of scientific observations, and far far below that is my first 'Emotional' reply made that I now refute.







Monday, January 14, 2008

I would like to add that another MOC was acquired of this particular feature. So actually there are FOUR (4) MGS MOCs of this feature with fairly high resolution. And after listing all four, their geometries and short descriptive comments; I have further comments, questions and requests before we can fill out the questionnaire and determine the brutal truth nature of this target.

The browse image PSP_005924_2210 given does not fit with the data acquired from ALL four MOCs.



Latitude 40.96°

Longitude 10.16°

Resolution * 2.39 m

Phase Angle 68.89°

Incidence Angle 66.85°

Emission Angle 2.36°

North Azimuth 265.11°

Slant Range (km) 329.02

Spacecraft Altitude (km) 328.77

MOC is only 2.36 deg from vertical to target with sun approximately 23 degrees above horizon to target. Since the "crater/hole" is slanted on the western edge of the 'pyramid/mesa' this sun angle should have directly illuminated the interior to a greater degree than other acquisitions. Yet the "crater/hole" center remains dark and unresolvable. Angle between MOC and Sun from target is approximately 69 degrees. Resolution is 2.39 meters/pixel.




Latitude 40.79°

Longitude 10.19°

Resolution * 1.49 meters/pixel

Phase Angle 30.32°

Incidence Angle 30.32°

Emission Angle 0.40°

North Azimuth 93.87°

Slant Range (km) 413.79

Spacecraft Altitude (km) 413.79

This is the BEST image from the MOC of the target.

MOC is nearly directly over target less .5 degree from vertical.

Pixel resolution is highest of ALL four MOCs of this target at about 1.5 meters/pixel.

The sun is about 60 degrees above the horizon and is the best lighting, geometry and pixel resolution achieved during the mission.

The angle between MOC and Sun is only 30 degrees when viewed from the target.

At this angle and illumination...if the "crater/hole" is only a shallow's bottom should have been CLEARLY in ALL other MOCs of this target...the bottom of the ‘crater/hole’ remains dark and unresolvable...even at the VERY BEST resolution, geometry and lighting conditions.






Latitude 40.91°

Longitude 10.23°

Resolution * 3.63 meters/pixel

Phase Angle 34.85°

Incidence Angle 34.94°

Emission Angle 0.19°

North Azimuth 93.89°

Slant Range (km) 416.70

Spacecraft Altitude (km) 416.70

Here is another image where the MOC is nearly directly above target, being off less than .2 degrees from vertical. Sun is about 55 degrees above horizon giving ample light to once more fully illuminate the target. From the target the sun and MOC are only about 35 degrees apart. Although the resolution of this acquisition is only 3.63 meters/pixel...again the 'crater/hole' center should be brightly illuminated and the bottom should be resolvable...but once more, it is not.





Latitude 40.98°

Longitude 10.23°

Resolution * 3.71 meters/pixel

Phase Angle 66.69°

Incidence Angle 50.13°

Emission Angle 17.98°

North Azimuth 93.84°

Slant Range (km) 435.19

Spacecraft Altitude (km) 416.31

Last known acquisition of the target from the MOC.

Here is an image where the MOC is nearly 18 degrees west of the target...seemingly trying to peer DOWN into the "crater/hole" and resolve it. The geometry of the acquisition suggests this from simple common sense applications of the relationships between the different elements.

The sun is 40 degrees above the horizon, with the angle from the target to the sun and MOC being about 67 degrees. Again while the resolution is only 3.71 m/p there still should be sufficient resolution to make out the SOME detail from the center of the "crater/hole". But again on it's last try, the center of this "crater/hole" remains an enigmatic and dark mystery as seen from the MGS MOC.

In ALL four of the above MOCs the "fog/smoke/haze/dust" is seen emanating FROM THE "CRATER/HOLE" as is evident by different pixel values for various areas around the hole and various measured points around the entire formation itself. This PROVES that the "fog/smoke/haze/dust" is an on-going and REAL-TIME phenomenon...and NOT just 'stuff' below the resolution of the MOC camera...since the places and densities of this "fog/smoke/haze/dust" shifts in all four MOC acquisitions.


We have run the BEST image available from the MOC since the browse MRO image gives us no geometry data to work with through Lightroom where adjustments can be made to compensate for lighting and shading in a "darkroom" type setting using image M22-00378 as the 'negative' as it were. Even in this environment, there are NO settings in the wide range of tools available to resolve the center of the "crater/hole".

In fact, it seems the hole itself has a dark hole in it's center. While 'some' of the edges of the dark center can be resolved with a variety of settings...there remains a dark circular, for want of a better word...highly regular circular "hole". The MRO browse image clearly shows there is none. However, it also shows the 'crater/hole' to be fairly shallow...and THUS...repudiates ALL four MOC acquisitions in not resolving the center in four attempts at four different geometries.

Without knowing MORE about the MRO data for acquisition PSP_005924_2210, including, but not limited to, the FULL jpeg2000 version, HiRise color of this targeting opportunity, and ANY data acquired from the other instruments as was requested when we made this request, we are not comfortable with our fast quick assessment above which was written close to the day the browse image was released to us.

I wish to point out that we remain honored and privileged to be part of this endeavor. However after further intense study, measurements of various pieces of data and looking at the geometry of the four MOC acquisitions we cannot conclude that the "Smoker turns into Duster" is the proper caption we wish for this image. We need more concrete, and different type of data to study before we can put our name to the final caption and final report. We don't even have the meter/pixel resolution of the browse image given us, we

have NONE of it's geometry, none of the local lighting conditions and we don't have the other data we requested be acquired when this target was proposed and accepted.

Your answer to this additional inquiry would be greatly appreciated.

Again I want to stress that we DO feel privileged and honored to be part of this effort, however, we cannot let our enthusiasm and bias over-rule what the SCIENCE of the data may tell us. We have waited since April 14, 1998 for this opportunity. Themis and ESA spacecraft did NOT have the resolution needed to properly study this formation in specific and high detail. We have been waiting a long time for a mission like the MRO and your great team. We are truly hungry for the data to do some proper analysis.

We do NOT intend to write any "proper" scientific paper for publication or intrude into any science any of the principle investigators may wish to do. However, we MUST have real data along with the ancillary information needed to make a proper, rigorous and scientific study of the feature. The preliminary write-up above was based on we need a view based on the data and the science which only you can provide us.

We hope you agree and make that data available as soon as it is convenient for your team. Please keep in mind that we also have seen some MRO images with 3D is there a possibility of getting a USGS DEM of this acquisition also? Since it was stated in our initial proposal that bringing the feature into a home desktop 3D software program was just one of our goals we were trying to achieve?

We again thank you for letting us participate and hope you will fulfill all our requests and also allow us to provide another target at a future targeting opportunity.

We sincerely thank you and the entire MRO team.

Robert H. Williams

2453 Route 11 Main St

Mooers, NY 12958


retired CCC College Professor












Color 3D Anaglyph Views by The Hidden Mission member "Jdub":   THM BBS:




First 'Emotional' reply made:

rhw007 View profile
More options Dec 11 2007, 9:36 pm

From: rhw007 <>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:36:46 -0800 (PST)
Local: Tues, Dec 11 2007 9:36 pm
Subject: Re: PSP_005924_2210 (Buttes and Knobs in Cydonia Region)
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Remove | Report this message | Find messages by this author
On Dec 3, 5:36 pm, Glenn <> wrote:

> This discussion pertains to PSP_005924_2210 (Buttes and Knobs in
> Cydonia Region).

I wish to thank the entire MRO team for acquiring this target.

This area had been imaged 3 times by the MGS MOC and was given the
acronym "Smoking Pyramid" by myself in April 1998 because in the 3
images, sp123903 , M22-00378 , E01-01908 the object rises above the
plain about three hundred meters (using E01-01908 at 3.12 m/p) and the
crater bottom cannot be seen. There is a "smoke" effect that differs
in grayscale values and locations in all three images. HiRise has
shown the crater now clearly has a bottom that likely fills with
blowing dust in slow winds and likely is blown out of the crater in
direction of high wind events. There remain questions about a large
'slate' type bedrock at the top of the 'pyramid' shaped hill, and the
fact that the crater, when made, did not destroy it or the corner it
sits on above the lower plain below. Hopefully other instrument
observations requested might answer some of these and other questions
that remain.

links to above MOC images:

At this point I must conclude that the:

"Smoker turns into Duster" as a likely caption for this image.

There is a LOT of dust surrounding other features in the area that is
even beyond the resolution of the it is likely dust, or in
some cases may be 'talus' piles.

When the report I've completed is reviewed further and submitted I
hope to be able to have access to any other data this targeting
opportunity has acquired.

It was also one my hopes to acquire data for a DEM model and images
for importation into Bryce 5 or Lightwave in making a 3D world of this

Any help in this area would also be very much appreciated.

As a retired College Professor working on material for non-credit
College Workshops it remains my hope to have as much data, in 3D
format, to bring before the college for workshop proposal.

I, and others, feel very honored and privileged to have been part of
this continuing quest to understand Mars' past, present, and hopefully
soon, Human habitation,

Thank you so very much to all those involved and any future help that
might be provided to make this target a 3D world so could view all
layers and data about this object from differing perspectives.

Robert H. Williams

Temp End 1-17-2008


The entire image with ancillary data was released in February 2008.  In March 2008 the CRISM, SHARAD and other instruments were released to the PDS.  We currently have not had time to study the new data except to note that the COLOR portion of the HiRise release :

misses the all important 'crater/hole'.  We currently have request ID 22704 with the Spring 2008 MRO HiRise Challenge Quest.  With two acquisitions we hope to have the feature appear on this page where DTMs are made:

and we will also have two images to put into ENVI 4.4 to get our own DEM and form our own Bryce 3D model, to compare with the MOC 3D model when we have our request ID 22704, which we are still working on and will show when ready.

Thank you to the MRO folks for the privilege of being part of this great quest to unravel the mysteries of Mars.

Here is the letter of justification I sent in with the above request ID 22704:

March 17, 2008


Dear MRO Team,


I thank you for being allowed to participate in the Fall 2007 Challenge and being accepted to participate in the Spring 2008 Targeting Challenge as well.


The image you acquired PSP_005924_2210 the color version missed the “crater/hole” that was of great importance.  I would request another target acquisition of the just the HiRise camera in both RED and Color spectrum at the SAME latitude of 40.5 degrees North but instead of 350.1 degrees East the latitude should be about 350 degrees East.  This is presuming the same information about emission angle 4.7 degree, phase angle of 60.1 degree and solar incidence angle of 57 degree can be accomplished.


What I am hoping for is that the whole area could be acquired as a stereo pair which might be used in this page:  or if not, then we could use just the four HiRise images in ENVI 4.4 to make a DEM with just the visual information from the two acquisitions.  It is hoped that the second acquisition will find its EASTERN edge of the color portion just slightly overlapping the WESTERN edge of the current color acquisition of PSP_005924_2210 giving continuity of elements for proper color co-ordination.


While I have yet to view the CRISM or SHARAD or CTX data if acquired last time due to time constraints, I hope to get to them as soon as possible.   And I do appreciate the full instrumentation being used on this acquisition.  I have updated the ISIS 3 program files and just the base and MRO data on my dual-boot SUSE 10.2 section and have 15 GB still to work with and will be going through working with trying to find the CRISM, SHARAD and MRO HiRise data and integrating them into something I can pull into ENVI 4.4 for a FULL over all up and down view of this feature.


The “crater/hole” size and depth is crucial in trying to understand why 4 different MGS MOC acquisitions FAILED to see its bottom when the RED channel clearly shows it to be shallow.  In addition, a 3D rendering of the area is the only way to verify the differences the MOC images show in 3D and what we see in the current MRO version.  This can only be done with another acquisition of the target only slightly more WEST of where the acquisition of PSP_005924_2210 -  given the same angle constraints as the first acquisition.  If another acquisition with other angles, as long as the EASTERN edge of the color portion of the new acquisition “slightly” overlaps the Western edge one from PSP_005924_2210 then that would be acceptable and also be usable in making a 3D DEM with the two stereo pairs in ENVI 4.4.   We can then lay the images over the DEM and get a further study and understanding of why the same feature looks so different between the two instruments.  Remember that MOC M22-00378

Has the BEST resolution of all the four MOCs at 1.5 meters per pixel.  I must say that the Red channel of PSP_005924_2210 does not “jive” with features clearly seen in the above mentioned MOC M22-00378.  We would like to be able to do 3D DEMS of both sets of data for proper comparisons.  Your cooperation by re-acquiring this target for a stereo pair with the EASTERN COLOR EDGE portion slightly overlapping the Western Color Edge of the one we have would be ideal. 

I know this is awfully tight and precise targeting.  But the MRO and your entire team has proven to be an amazing combination to bring us the surprising beauty and mystery of Mars.  In catching the Ice Cap Avalanche there is NO ONE who can now say that Mars is “geologically dead’.   You have BURIED, literally, that tired old theory to bed forever.

Again, thank you for the privilege of being a part of part of the Spring 2008 MRO HiRise Challenge.



Robert H. Williams

2453 Route 11 Main St

Mooers, NY 12958

518-236-6733 -leave message


End current update March 19, 2008


Updated May 12. 2008


Many thanks to the MRO folks for acquiring my first 2007 Targeting Request in Fall Challenge and hope they will acquire the same feature only slightly west as my 2008 Spring Challenge Request 22704.  Data already gathered and put into processing by Jdub of Keith Laney's The Hidden Mission Forum:

has made more of his wonderful 3D anaglyphs which I wish to thank him again for his talent, generosity, and passion for his work. 


First the Whole Area where I first saw the Cydonia Smoking Pyramid in April 1998:



Now focusing on just the "Smoking Pyramid" as I coined it that April 1998 day:



PLEASE NOTE that the "hole-crater" appears very very deep for such a small football field sized 'hole-crater'.


Now...."The Hexagon Crater" dubbed by someone else. ?



Now these 3D anaglyphs of Jdubs give us a good and much better view and understanding of the "lay of the land".

Nothing to replace "Boots on the Ground" which is where I think our answers will only be TRULY answered when Earthlings gather together and decide to go.  It is like an audience member in 1976 said out loud and laughing as Gerry Soffen stood in front of more than thousand reporters and handed out "press release copies" of the "HEAD" image that Tobias Owen found and comically joked..."Maybe it's telling us where we are supposed to land?" 


How right he was and Tobias Owen found an image which began an adventure that will hopefully bring humans together as Earthlings and go to Mars as one species and discover the mysteries that are there.

I have downloaded and processed the RED CCD image strips through Robert Shepard's Moc-o-matic1 and have posted them below for some of the "major" features in this area.  The Smoking Pyramid 'Hole-Crater', the Pyramid's top, the "Arrow" west of the Pyramid on the plain, and the "Hexagon Crater".

There are two versions all are large full size from the MRO HiRise strip, the names have a shortened nomenclature, and rhw in the name means I used the Moc-o-matic, rhwa means the image has been annotated by me by circling, squaring or otherwise indicating many, but not all, of the "interesting" features I think need "Boots on the Ground" for "Ground Truth Evidence" to completely eliminate ANY possibility that in fact, it might be "possible" the "Cydonia Smoking Pyramid" might have been built with large blocks of stone like the Egyptian Pyramids...but with a different methodology in holding them together possibly.  I can see many 'square' blocks scattered around the area and clumps of these making what appear to be supporting beams.  It is still my contention that this feature is "possibly" and archeological artifact in Cydonia on Mars, one of very many, from a race of beings other than "modern humans".

First the peak of the Pyramid:


Now for my annotation view and I also want to PLEASE note how close the TOP of the 'hole-crater' lips is to the bottom of the top 'carving-down slope' to the west or right of the image.  This was the LAST image included in the COLOR version of this acquisition.  The actual crater and it's rampart NEVER got it's COLOR CCDs on it to gather it's data from this portion of the feature and points further west like the "Arrow".

I also noticed that the "walkways" that are in ALL FOUR MGS MOC images...simply seem to disappear.  Why?

Now we come to the next strip, the one that missed the COLOR CCDs for data...the actual "Hole-Crater Platform"



And now all the more "interesting areas" that I have indicated, which are by no means all of them...but when one looks at a site like an archeologist then a "mind-set" is over-come immediately.  It is no longer "impossible" for these to be ruins of a long gone civilization...but one that is immediately seen as "possibly" real and brings a response of questions that need answers of the who, what, when, where, why, and how of all this came to be.


Now for another frame that did not catch the COLOR CCDs...."The Arrow"



Now for my annotated version of "The Arrow" :


  Once more I have by no means circled everything "interesting" to me in these images.

   Remember that from here:

The information says that the pixel resolution is 25 cm per pixel....the BEST that the MRO HiRise can do.


Now for "The Hexagon Crater"...first as processed then annotated:


And now my "annotated" version.




Well this concludes what has been done with this data so far.  Jdub was kind enough to provide me the 'raw' images he used in making the 3D images of the area and Smoking Pyramid.  It is my hope to be able to put those into a program to do shape from shading to add a Y or height element to the images that isn't there now...but can be seen in Jdub's wonderful 3D Red-Blue anaglyphs.  I hope to be able to accomplish this.

Keith Laney has started a new section of his actual website:

The Weirdest Stuff on all our efforts it is an ongoing process...check in often.


Thanx for visiting and if you have comments I am a member of the The Hidden Mission Forum


I also have a blog besides email where you can leave comments:


End of update May 12, 2008

UPDATE July 10, 2008

The Mro HiRise image was relesed with the following cover page showing NO "informational details" about the object, the terrain around it, or Cydonia itself in particular this was done on March 5, 2008:

HiRISE Buttes and Knobs in Cydonia Region (PSP_005924_2210).mht -files not opening properly 3/26/2012

on June 13, 2008 (Friday the 13th about a week before my Dad died) ANOTHER release was made of the same image only this time they added some "editorial" comment:

HiRISE Buttes and Knobs in Cydonia Region (PSP_005924_2210)-released-6-13-2008.mht -files not opening properly 3/26/2012

Why would a re-release of the SAME data be necessary?  Maybe to try and contradict 'non-mainstream' theories as to what the features might be?

I have re-requested this feature to be acquired in the Spring 2008 Mro HiRise challenge only a wee bit west so that the "hole/crater" would fall within the color zone and also make this feature a part of the growing number of stereo pairs from which we Cydonia Anomalist can extract 3D data and put that data into desktop programs like Bryce, Lightwave, TrueSpace and others to specifically see and re-create not only the Mro HiRise acquisitions...but the MGS MOC acquisitions as well.  We will also have a better understanding why some of the features shown in all four (4) MOCs are missing in this MRO acquisition.  Maybe another acquisition a slight bit west will allow the eastern edge of the color of the new acquisition slightly overlap the western color of the current acquisition we have presented above.


As always I am VERY grateful and honored to be part of the HiRise Challenge Quest which SHOULD be opening to the general public soon as this was touted as "The People's Camera".   To the MRO team I feel you hit the target dead a more difficult tasks is asked with great respect for the work you to do produce another acquisition where the colors will slightly overlap and the center latitude would be a wee-bit west.

Thank you again to all of you...without your work we would have nothing but the MOCs to work with.



    Back to CSC Main










Hit Counter